How much longer could European Empires last without WW1?

Colonialism requires that A)It be profitable to the colonizing power or at least perceived to be profitable (and profit doesn't have to just be economic terms, it can also be militarily, culturally, prestige, etc.) B)Have some form of buy- in from the local population, at least among their elites, to work effectively, C) Related to enforcing the former, the colonizing state must be able to marshal overwhelming military superiority, with organizational and technological advantages.

Without the Great War, all of these are going to be much more slanted in favor of the European empires. Economically, the wars disrupted colonial trading relationships to a great extent, In French West Africa, the French lost market share during the war due to lack of shipping, merchant house employees mobilized for the front, and their industry being entirely concentrated on military activity. While this was to the benefit of the English, we know that the English had their own problems of having to assign scarce shipping, worn down industry, and manpower losses. Wartime was a dramatic rupture to local economies and punished them when they were increasingly being drawn into the world commercial system by destroying their export markets and preventing them from receiving imports. Without the wars I'd expect the colonies to be, in absolute terms, much more economically significant, even if in relative terms they'd be less so.

The level of expenditure on colonies would also be more limited I expect, since at least in the French case, many of the expensive projects that the French undertook (conscription, Office du Niger, colonial defense infrastructure, etc.) were tied up with arms races and above all else trying to leverage their colonial resources to metropolitan benefit to account for their weaknesses or deficiencies - manpower to be solved by drafting Africans, cotton grown in Niger to make up for their reliance on the Americans, etc. In a more multilateral world and one which is more stable, without frantic expenditures of temporary arms races but instead longer and more stable ones, the empires would have less need to spend massive amounts of money on their colonies: economic resources could be devoted more rationally and more efficiently.

Furthermore in at least the French case the wars meant that the colonies were formally integrated as part of France and had to receive some financial treatment equivalent, and without the world wars there wouldn't be any such "gratitude" shown to the colonies, and hence much less financial expenditure. Similar things probably happened with other colonial powers and escalating expenditures.

Of course, without the wars, the European states will be far stronger and more capable of enforcing their will over the colonies if there are revolts.

Most importantly however, I feel is the moral factor is why colonialism will last much longer. Before the First World War, when Europeans spoke of the superiority of European civilization, it was hard to deny it - hardly any wars for a century, massive population expansion, fast advancing technology, confidence, self-assurance, domination of the world, high culture and grandeur. The Great War fundamentally shook European beliefs in the superiority of their own civilization and the fruits of the industrial revolution and caused many colonized intellectuals to find the idea of European civilizational superiority a sham. The Second World War of course, only intensified this, and greatly discredited the racist thinking which predicated colonialism, as well as destroying what remaining moral superiority the European powers could lay claim to.

Without the world wars, this wouldn't be the place, and I'd expect a lot more buy in from local elites who are genuinely convinced in the European civilizing mission to some extent - that the Europeans really are the possessors of a superior civilization, or at least one that they simply have no choice but to emulate. And the Europeans would be capable of deploying racist, Darwinian, and evolutionary thinking to justify their control. I think it entirely likely that unlike in our world, such thinking would continue to the present as a justification for colonialism. Even in today's world there are a massive number of people who subscribe to some extent to the idea of people being dumber or smarter based on what race they belong to, and that is despite decades of vigorous attempts to counter-act previous scientific racism. Without the massive blow-back to this stemming from the world wars, I'd think that that social science, as it tends to do so well, will find some other criterion and continue to institutionalize racial hierarchy and biological determinism.

Of course, these are all just factors that mitigate, rather than entirely prevent, the factors that lead to the end of colonialism. I'd expect that the more "developed" territories would sooner or later gain independence - particularly the Asian colonies and Egypt. They might still have some form of neocolonial control or relationship to the metropole, but they would at least have formal independence. The Japanese colonies in Asia I don't know enough about to say for one way or another, but I can't help but think that Korea might follow a similar trajectory.

The rest of the world however, I think might remain under colonial domination to the present, although increasingly they would be becoming restive....

I would dispute that for most of the Austro-Hungarian Empire that it could really be referred to as colonialism as we understand it, with exceptions of perhaps Bosnia, it was at heart an old-style land dynastic empire based on non-nationalistic principles that was having to adapt to the modern era and the rise of nationalist sentiments. Russia fits colonization much more closely given that its domination by the Russian ethnic group and its russification policies and settlement policies. I don't see either as collapsing: Austria-Hungary proved remarkably resilient during the horrors of the First World War and although it may reform, I doubt it will break apart, and without the world wars or communism the domination of Russians and russification will continue and accelerate in Russia.
 
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Wars are often caused by rising powers trying to supplant older, declining empires.

If Russia had another "Peter the Great" around 1900, she could have vigorously industrialized and become Kaizer Whilhelm's nightmare. Prussia has few natural defenses and has been invaded so many times from the East: Huns, Lituanians, Mongols, Poles, Russians, Swedes, etc. that they lost count. One reason Germany attacked eastwards - in 1914 - was to forestall Russian Army modernization.
OTL Russian industry was modernizing - early 20th century - just slower than Britain, France and Germany.
 

xsampa

Banned
Could the empires partition the last independent non European old world states like Persia or China
 
As always in threads like this i ask the question of what a colony is actually supposed to be

'Exploited by the meteopole' is just the old marxist class struggle with a layer of distance and ethnicity. Are the workers in the Ruhr not exploited by Berlin as the miners in Togo are? What is the real difference? That one can partake in elections and the other can not? That's an easy way to end colonialism then. Just give them the vote.
 

xsampa

Banned
As always in threads like this i ask the question of what a colony is actually supposed to be

'Exploited by the meteopole' is just the old marxist class struggle with a layer of distance and ethnicity. Are the workers in the Ruhr not exploited by Berlin as the miners in Togo are? What is the real difference? That one can partake in elections and the other can not? That's an easy way to end colonialism then. Just give them the vote.
This is possible but for say Britain and India , it is impossible.
 
European leadership somehow keeps their heads and decides to focus on other things this could get interesting

realistically India will gain its independence at the latest in the 60s. most likely though in the mid-50s.

if China goes through its warlord era. China is probably brought under European and Japanese control at least until the sixties possibly even the 70s this control will be concentrated on the coastline though with Warlords acting as European/Japanese satellite States

Africa will be a lot different there will be a lot of Europeans moving into the area you might actually see a mass migration of Europeans without the war due to overcrowding and lack of work in Europe. so there is most likely a large minority of white people within Africa there actually might be a few African states where are Europeans outnumber natives.

Germany and Britain divide up the Portuguese Empire between them

but in all honesty I can actually see any European Colonial administrations lasting all the way into the 90s in Africa but by then most of these governments will basically be independent just working within a European Commonwealth. similar to Puerto Rico an the United States work together they only reason they stay is because they get free stuff.

the Middle East and the Ottoman Empire is going to be an interesting subject
German support for the Ottomans would have to disappear to maintain peace within Europe so if that happens the Wolves might start circling the Ottoman Empire
if the Arab rebellions caused enough damage the Europeans might come in and do a knockout blow the Scramble for the Middle East might be the last European Empire Building campaign before it begins to fall apart. European control of the Middle East will probably end with in the late 1960s if that happens.


the Space Race will be interesting veryone knows that Germany was blessed with some of the greatest Minds in history in this era but without the first World War I wonder if anyone else that died in the trenches were even smarter than them.

The key FrontRunner in my opinion will be the Germans British United States Russians and possibly the French

European Empires themselves
France Britain and Germany politically remain stable and Germany may become more democratic but besides that nothing changes these countries have no underlining problems that could end up overthrowing the government and causing massive problems

Austria-Hungary probably becomes the austro-hungarian Bohemian Empire and might last all the way into the 60s before some economic crisis caused the damn thing to finally fall

the Russian Empire Democratic reforms are coming but there is no way a Communist Revolution is happening without the first world war the Russian economy will continue to grow by the 50s Russia might have the fastest growing middle class also by this time the Russian Emperor probably has limited powers probably something similar to what the German Empire had at the start of World War 1. Finland probably gained its independence somewhere in the 60s along with Poland they possibly might be monarchies to. in 1916 the Russian Empires population was 181 million the Russian population by the 60s will be over 300 million

Portugal Monarchy of the North I can honestly see European powers getting involved in trying to re-establish the Portuguese monarchy the only problem is I don't know if they can succeed long-term.


Italy remains a monarchy but might have a strongman era that last for a decade or two Libya probably remains part of the Kingdom of Italy and Eritrea probably is in a permanent Commonwealth status with the kingdom


Spain probably avoids it's Civil War monarchy is probably never removed due to what's going on in Portugal but becomes nothing more than a figurehead


Netherlands and Belgium they probably lose their colonial possessions probably sometime in the 60s or 70s this depends on when India and China gets their independence a lot because these countries will be undermining European Colonial possessions with in Asia Africa and Oceania
 
I doubt it in the extreme, the OTL 1913 world was one which was in some terms even more globalized than today and the world was steadily becoming more and more interconnected, empires as trading blocks is more a result of the collapse of the system of world globalization in the aftermath of the First World War and in particular during the great depression. Sure colonial territories tended to trade more with their home nations than with other nations, but that's hardly surprising given that the home nations tended to hold most of the investment there, speak the same language, they might have been taken over as colonies due to having major commercial interests there, etc. Without the Great War then the world would become more globalized and interconnected, not less.
An interconnected world is not mutually exclusive with preferred trading blocks. And without the world wars the notion that European hegemony not monolithic or nigh-invincible will take much longer to develop, as will the notion of civil rights or equal rights.
 
This is possible but for say Britain and India , it is impossible.
Is that really so? Inida can be reorganized into a dozen kingdoms, with the King of England crowned as head of them all, and the whole thing being called the "United Empire", everyone under the same crown, with a common foreign policy and customs union. Everything else handled by the states themselves.
 
An interconnected world is not mutually exclusive with preferred trading blocks. And without the world wars the notion that European hegemony not monolithic or nigh-invincible will take much longer to develop, as will the notion of civil rights or equal rights.
You're shifting your terminology and goal posts. Your initial term was "isolated trading blocs" and now that has turned into "preferred trading blocks." The two are completely different things. Preferred trading blocks are a possibility since colonial powers tended to do an outsized proportion of their trade with their colonies, but in a much more globalized and interconnected world their proportion of their total trade is going to be much lower than OTL, and isolated trading blocs are impossible.

I don't know why you added on your second part since that has nothing to do with anything I've said.
 

Orangecar

Banned
Most people who say these empires would remain are very uneduacated about the history of anti colonial movements. Most of them predate ww1. African and Asians had started demanding more from the first day of colonisation. Demands started out small but demands also grew as the movements did. For example the precursor to the ANC in pre world war one south africa was a small black intellectual class who tried to retain their limited rights. By the 1940's it had grown to encompasse the black working class as a result of growth. This was partly the result of urbanisation which allowed small movements to become mass movements. Once urbinisation kicks in the white man can kiss their racist colonies goodbye. Urbanisation and education are the end of colonialism. Nearly all anti colonial movements have two pillars, an intellecual middle class rejected by the white establishment to lead and an urban working class who are able to give the movement its numbers to succeed. The reality is that most colonial economies were poorly managed by white administrators and were incredibly poor, once they lose their small urban base then colonies become impossible to maintain.
 

xsampa

Banned
Is that really so? Inida can be reorganized into a dozen kingdoms, with the King of England crowned as head of them all, and the whole thing being called the "United Empire", everyone under the same crown, with a common foreign policy and customs union. Everything else handled by the states themselves.
That’s more of a tighter Commonwealth thing
 
That’s more of a tighter Commonwealth thing
It's what Austria-Hungary had until WW1. People and goods can move unhindered, people have votes in local assemblies that have the power to do something (as long as they're representative) but to the outside world you present a united front.
 
This is possible but for say Britain and India , it is impossible.
India is an empire of its own and by 1900 independence at some point was already inevitable. In any sort of Imperial settlement giving all subjects the vote Indian independence has to happen to stop the Empire becoming the Indian Empire.
 
India is an empire of its own and by 1900 independence at some point was already inevitable. In any sort of Imperial settlement giving all subjects the vote Indian independence has to happen to stop the Empirie becoming the Indian Empire.
An Indian led Empire would be quite interesting. As would a Dual Empire. India controlling the East African, Middle East and Asian territories with the UK dominating the other portion. A mix of a Federation of the White Dominions and the Mediterranean, Caribbean, Pacific, and West and southern African regions.
 
I think we would see the world turn into a major development of the region as the empires start to improve the area as a way to improve their resources.
So I think things will turn into settling Africa and putting more white people into Africa.
 

Darzin

Banned
I think it will be really hard for the Europeans to hold onto their colonies past the 1970s and the 80s at the latest. Take Portugal for example. Portugal sat out World War II and barely participated in World War I and had a government dedicated to keeping their colonies no matter the cost and in the end the Portuguese population rose up and overthrew their own government, because they got tired of spending the blood and treasure to keep foreign lands. It's important to remember that the colonizer can get tired of keeping up colonies, it's not only the colonized who can end this. And in an increasingly globalized world you don't need to control a country through military force, cheaper to just have your companies buy the goods. The only real reason to keep them is national pride but as we can see with Portugal even if the government is willing to do this the populations is going to get tired of these Vietnam style wars.

I also think the increasing egalitarianism of Western societies will play a role, as these countries become more egalitarian people are going to become morally uncomfortable having colonies.
 
I think it will be really hard for the Europeans to hold onto their colonies past the 1970s and the 80s at the latest. Take Portugal for example.

Well, Portugal lost its colonial empire in 1975, so you're basically suggesting that the absence of the world wars would make very little difference, if any, in when it loses its colonies. That seems hard to grok.

The blood and treasure being spent by Lisbon in the 60's and 70's was due to the fact that most of the colonies in question had robust Marxist rebellions in the field. But in a world where there is no Great War, you're far less likely to ever see a Bolshevik revolution in Russia. You might well see *some* kind of revolution in Russia at some point, but it becomes less likely that it takes a Bolshevik form (and it took a lot of things rolling Lenin's way for him to mount his coup successfully in November 1917).

A lot of what made the Marxist movements in sub-Saharan Africa possible wasn't just the objective fact of Soviet assistance, but also the subjective example of its revolution (and those which followed in its wake) having been actually successful. Until that point, there had not been a successful communist revolution (despite multiple attempts). As a result, African revolutionaries not only saw (from New World examples) that wars of independence could be achieved, but that it was possible to achieve them in Marxist ways.

The Portuguese empire is not going to last forever, of course. But a world without the great wars will make for a very different history. It seems more likely, barring some other dramatic development, that Portugal probably *could* retain its colonial empire in *some* form into the *early* 21st century, and that its dissolution would take a very different (possibly, more gradual) form.
 
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